Understood

Ep.10 | Dr Dan Brown: the #1 mental health tip from a Harvard Psychologist

September 19, 2020 Mitch Wallis
Understood
Ep.10 | Dr Dan Brown: the #1 mental health tip from a Harvard Psychologist
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Understood
Ep.10 | Dr Dan Brown: the #1 mental health tip from a Harvard Psychologist
Sep 19, 2020
Mitch Wallis

Today's guest is Dr Dan Brown. In this episode we cover:

  •  A world leading expert on attachment psychology gives us a masterclass in how relationships affect our brain
  • A Harvard psychologist perspective on why mental health is so bad in our modern world
  • We disclose the #1 thing that can affect your mental health
  • The 5 attributes of giving secure attachment to others those we care about
  • How to overcome conflict and ruptures in relationships through boundaries
  • How we can become more mature in our ow=n emotional regulation
  • An exploration of child development and the different relational maps as we grow up
  • Top psychological traits of high performers and how to cultivate peak states
  • Neuroscience insights into attention and how it relates to ADHD
  • How parents can “wander out loud” about their kids to help them learn about their mind
  • The subtle nuances of meditation to make sure it “works”

About Dr Dan Brown 
Dr. Brown is an Associate Clinical Professor in Psychology at Harvard Medical School. He has served on the Harvard Medical School faculty for 37 years. He is the senior author of a major textbook on the treatment of attachment disorders in adults, D Brown & D Elliott, Attachment Disturbances in Adults. He has served as an expert witness in the courts in over two hundred lawsuits relating to psychological damages from trauma and abuse; His work as an expert witness or consultant on trauma and memory has included testimony before of International War Crimes Tribunal. He has studied under leading eastern meditation teachers (even meditation originators i.e. people who developed the actual practice itself) and has spent 46 years translating meditation texts from Tibetan and Sanskrit into English. He has the only scientific study identifying the neurocircuitry of the meditative experience of awakened mind. Dr. Brown’s background in both Western psychology and Eastern meditation traditions offers a unique integration of the contemporary Western research on peak performance and positive psychology and the classical Buddhist meditation lineage traditions.

- Show Notes -
https://www.attachmentproject.com/

- Note: This episode was recorded in 2019 -

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Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/understood/id1522620849/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCb35WjXg5PZG6ZfbNm1AaRA/

- Hotline phone number is -
+61419689311

- Website -
www.mitchwallis.com

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Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mitchwallism...
LinkedIn:

Show Notes Transcript

Today's guest is Dr Dan Brown. In this episode we cover:

  •  A world leading expert on attachment psychology gives us a masterclass in how relationships affect our brain
  • A Harvard psychologist perspective on why mental health is so bad in our modern world
  • We disclose the #1 thing that can affect your mental health
  • The 5 attributes of giving secure attachment to others those we care about
  • How to overcome conflict and ruptures in relationships through boundaries
  • How we can become more mature in our ow=n emotional regulation
  • An exploration of child development and the different relational maps as we grow up
  • Top psychological traits of high performers and how to cultivate peak states
  • Neuroscience insights into attention and how it relates to ADHD
  • How parents can “wander out loud” about their kids to help them learn about their mind
  • The subtle nuances of meditation to make sure it “works”

About Dr Dan Brown 
Dr. Brown is an Associate Clinical Professor in Psychology at Harvard Medical School. He has served on the Harvard Medical School faculty for 37 years. He is the senior author of a major textbook on the treatment of attachment disorders in adults, D Brown & D Elliott, Attachment Disturbances in Adults. He has served as an expert witness in the courts in over two hundred lawsuits relating to psychological damages from trauma and abuse; His work as an expert witness or consultant on trauma and memory has included testimony before of International War Crimes Tribunal. He has studied under leading eastern meditation teachers (even meditation originators i.e. people who developed the actual practice itself) and has spent 46 years translating meditation texts from Tibetan and Sanskrit into English. He has the only scientific study identifying the neurocircuitry of the meditative experience of awakened mind. Dr. Brown’s background in both Western psychology and Eastern meditation traditions offers a unique integration of the contemporary Western research on peak performance and positive psychology and the classical Buddhist meditation lineage traditions.

- Show Notes -
https://www.attachmentproject.com/

- Note: This episode was recorded in 2019 -

- SUBSCRIBE, RATE & REVIEW THE SHOW  -
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/02aqR5aly0A7ZSiktQrA2X
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/understood/id1522620849/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCb35WjXg5PZG6ZfbNm1AaRA/

- Hotline phone number is -
+61419689311

- Website -
www.mitchwallis.com

- Find me on social media -
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mitch.wallis/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mitchwallism...
LinkedIn:

Mitch Wallis:

Welcome back you beautiful animals to another episode of understood the psychology podcast helping you to make sense of your life and your mind so that we can all live a little bit happier and healthier. I'm your host, Mitch Wallis. And I'm glad to be doing this again with you might be able to hear my dog snoring in the background. So, apologies for my furry little friend there. We got another guest episode today. This is an episode I recorded in a couple years ago. And I'm bringing it over to this platform, because it's a very, very special one to me. And our next guest episode will be starting fresh from real time. But this is an incredible talk with an incredible, incredible man, Dr. Dan Brown, this guy, I mean, his CV is intimidating to say the least. He's an associate clinical professor in psychology at Harvard Medical School, where he served in the medical faculty for 37 years. He is the senior author of a major textbook on the treatment of attachment disorders in adults. And he's served as an expert witness in the courts in over 200 lawsuits relating to psychological damages from trauma and abuse. He's even been an expert witness. He's provided testimony in the international War Crimes Tribunal. He studied under leading Eastern meditation teachers, even meditation originators, ie people who have developed the actual practice itself. And he spent 46 years translating meditation texts from Tibetan and Sanskrit into English is the only scientific study identifying the neurocircuitry of the meditative experience on the awakened mind. I mean, that just sounds cool. Dr. Dan Brown's background in western psychology and Eastern meditation traditions, really offers a unique integration of the western side of things on peak performance and positive psychology and trauma with the classical Buddhist Eastern lineage. And this is quite a technical episode, as in, we geek out hard on psychology theory and science and all that stuff. But I try as much as I can to interpret that so that it is understandable and digestible for people who haven't necessarily got degrees in this stuff, but want to apply the learnings in your everyday life. So I hope that comes across. I tried as hard as I possibly could. And I want to pull this snippet or soundbite up front, have a listen. Relationships are the more of a predictor than anything else, the quality of the relationship on your mental health. And that can when done well be a number one protective factor or when not done well be the number one determinant of suffering. Would you agree with that?

Dr Dan Brown:

I would agree with that. Yes.

Mitch Wallis:

Basically, what this shows is the importance of relationships and its effect on the brain, and how just how important our connections with other people are. And as you just heard a Harvard professor say that if there's one thing we're going to invest in, it's how we how we relate to others, how we connect with others, and how much of a return on investment that can have when we pay attention to it and actively do it in the right way. So I hope you enjoy it. And I look forward to seeing you back here very soon. I'm sure this one is going to be a life changer for some of you. Before we kick off, I just want to welcome you officially to Australia. You're in Melbourne at the moment. Yeah.

Dr Dan Brown:

In Melbourne. Yes.

Mitch Wallis:

How are you finding our lovely country?

Dr Dan Brown:

Well, I've come here every year for about a month to two months, a year, every March and April. And we love you. We we always try and because there's a long way to come, we always try and make a vacation out of it. And that means I've been to the outback, four times, I've been to Great Barrier Reef a few times, we've been to Niccolo in the western coast to swim with the whale sharks once. We'll do some adventure in your country.

Mitch Wallis:

Yeah, I was gonna say so you pretty much a more of a local than I am. So I, I should be asking you questions

Dr Dan Brown:

This year we are going to Arnhem Land back to the outback.

Mitch Wallis:

Amazing, amazing. But we're very privileged to have a guest like you on this podcast. And I think it was my birthday last night and or yesterday, and I was out last night, celebrating my 29th birthday. Thank you very much, Dan. And

Dr Dan Brown:

I'm 70.

Mitch Wallis:

Well, you, you're doing bloody well, for 70? Let me tell you, my friend. And when I was out last night, my friends were saying, you know, what are you doing tomorrow? And I said, Well, I'm actually interviewing Dr. Dan Brown, one of the greatest thought leaders in the mental health space. And in the spirituality space, I would say that's ever lived in the modern world. And they said, you better get home and have a good rest. And so that I did. And I think a lot of people, a lot of people listen to what you have to say from a clinical setting. And you're involved in a lot of legal settings. And it's all very official. But I guess I'd like to on the theme of birthdays, go back to a little bit about where you come from as a person as opposed to a teacher. And can you talk us through a little bit about your story in your, in your past your childhood?

Dr Dan Brown:

Well, I grew up in a working class family. My father had to work three jobs, mostly in factories to support three kids after World War Two. And the family didn't support education because they couldn't afford it. So I had to work my way through college, I had to go to the state school and work my way through college and three jobs like my father. And then I got a Dan force, which was a scholarship that was given for young talented teachers, and they paid for full tuition and living expenses at the University of Chicago for four years of graduate school. And that was my ticket. Then after that, I went to do my clinical internship at Harvard, and I've been in Harvard ever since I've been on the faculty for 38 years.

Mitch Wallis:

Amazing. And was there. What was the point in in your life? Was there a moment in your childhood or teenage years where you started to become interested in psychology in the mind?

Dr Dan Brown:

Well, I was an average student that wasn't that good a student and fourth grade and I had a fourth grade teacher, Mrs. Merchant, and she saw something in me and I just flourished, I became the best student in the class, became an artist and discovered artists artistic ability. So the following year, I was working for an advertising company and making good money at the age of 11 years of age. I never turned back after that, see, she just I just blossomed and because I had some teacher who had some faith in me.

Mitch Wallis:

So Mrs. Merchant, we have a lot to thank her for. So consider her at all of our appreciation going going to her? And was she did she have particular interest in in the mind or psychology or she just sparked your curiosity for learning. She just had faced It was a smart student, which I didn't have in myself, and she saw something in me and I just flourished. And and so as part of that flourishing, that could have gone a number of ways, as as someone who is obviously as gifted as you are wise, and why have you chosen to apply your gift to the field of mental health.

Dr Dan Brown:

I didn't start out in mental health. I started out in molecular biology. I was a prodigy in molecular biology. And I worked at MIT when I was 16 years old, and they invited me to a summer programme and research in cold springs harbour worked. It's the same use of Watson discovered DNA and molecular biology was the up and coming field. And then the Vietnam war came, and it seemed like growing invisible bugs in the laboratory seemed increasingly irrelevant to what was going on in the world. So I decided to leave molecular biology and learn about this. Mind, I thought it was a more relevant profession. And I'm happy I never turned back after that. I've been in clinical psychologist now for 48 years. It's a long time.

Mitch Wallis:

It is, it is a long time. And I'm sure in your years you've seen a lot. And I would imagine that considering the context of the war, that trauma has always been a field of interest.

Dr Dan Brown:

trauma and attachment. Yes.

Mitch Wallis:

Yep. And so, Dan Siegel shares a lot of your views, and particularly a lot of your passion sets around trauma and attachment. Have you guys met in person?

Dr Dan Brown:

No, I don't particularly like some of this stuff on neurobiology. It's not accurate to some of the neuroscience. I actually read all the neuroscience journals. So we have a diversity of differing opinions, I think,

Mitch Wallis:

well, two great minds to battle it out. And both a guest on this podcast. So I would, I would love to be a fly on the wall for those discussions. But you know, just touching back on your father, you said your father had had that amazing work ethic? Do you think that modelling that from him has been What's got you to where you are today, you know, writing countless books and etc.

Dr Dan Brown:

Oh, for sure. He would work. piecework, which means that if you just punch the clock, you could make a certain income, fixed income. But if you he was making parts on the lanes and our steel, and if you did piece work, and you can push yourself and pace yourself in maximum output. But if you make mistakes, then the mistakes you made a doc from your page. So the idea is to find the right edge to that pacing so that you can maximise your output and make much more money that way. And he always did that. And he came home, after working very hard all day happy, is covered with oil, he was happy. And he found that edge to progressing himself at that limit. And I think that's how I got interested in performance excellence. Finding that edge of one's performance and challenging oneself a little bit more tighter course in performance excellence at Harvard Medical School for over 30 years, I have a version for doctors and primary care doctors and surgeons, I have a version for judges and lawyers and the version for CEOs.

Mitch Wallis:

And so let's just kind of tap on that and take a quick detour into into high performance. What have you noticed to be kind of the top three traits or characteristics of people who are high performers? Well, I

Dr Dan Brown:

wouldn't talk about it in terms of characteristics. In Mike shixin, to me highs work on flow states, he found that there are two necessary ingredients. One is heightened attentiveness that people who are in a flow state are very, can sustain their attention in a remarkable way and resist distraction. They're rather single minded about what they do. And the other thing they can do is they can challenge themselves, they're always finding what their editors their range of talents are. And when they go a little bit above that edge all the time. She said to me, I call that the skill to challenge ratio. The idea is to always find new ways of challenging yourself but not challenging yourself so much that the anxiety has a disorganizing effect. We're always finding the edge to your learning and staying in that engine continuously in a flow state that way.

Mitch Wallis:

It's how we cultivate the flow state. And I guess there's an assumption in that sentence or model that the flow state then is the main path to peak performance is permanently being at your edge.

Dr Dan Brown:

And also hiding attentiveness. From a neuroscience point of view. The attention centre of the brain is the anterior cingulate cortex of the ACC. So if I give you an index card, and then has the text written out on it green and the colour of the text is red, you do a double take, do you focus on the colour? Or do you focus on the text itself, it takes a certain effort to tune the colour out and focus on the text or turn the text out and focus on the colour. And when you have text text text like that of competing attentional demands, the ACC gets activated. The ACC is that area of the brain is underactive and children and adults who have attention deficit disorder. When you do concentration meditation on mindfulness, the ACC gets activated. When you hypnotise someone, and they just focus on the hypnotist words and tune everything else out, you activate the ACC. When an athlete spontaneously enters a flow state, in his own his game in his performance, he activates the ACC. The brains and equal opportunity employer doesn't make any difference whether you use drugs like Ritalin or Adderall that activate the ACC or or Adderall or whether you use Mind Body techniques like hypnosis. Or concentration meditation, they all have a common pathway of activating the ACC.

Mitch Wallis:

Okay, that's interesting. So So I guess what we're trying to do therefore is cultivate heightened attentiveness and singular focus, whilst challenging ourselves to be at our edge. And the function of those two things produces increased performance output, is that correct?

Dr Dan Brown:

Yes. And what makes you challenge yourself with your edges, your metacognitive capacity, that is the capacity to step back and reflect on the strategies you're using while solving problems or reflect on what your state of mind is. So you're constantly can, in high speeds, self correct. The right desk, dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex is the metacognitive centre of the brain. And when people are in a heightened state of attentiveness, they're constantly monitoring what they're doing. So to stay on that edge, they're using that metacognitive awareness to be right at the edge of their challenge. limit.

Mitch Wallis:

That's a beautiful dichotomy, which, by the way, is a term that you would probably not believe in and or never use. And I would agree from being from a mindfulness kind of Buddhist mindset, the black is the white, the opposite is the same as its, its counter. So there is no order, there's always an end. But, you know, in its in its most apparent form, it would look as though you're trying to get contradictory goals, because on one hand, to get peak performance, you're trying to get very singularly focused on your attention. But on the other hand, with being at your edge, building this metacognitive capacity, you're also trying to be reflective and somewhat open minded of what's happening so that you can stay balanced and stays challenged. So what seems to be two opposing goals is actually complementing one another completely. Is that right?

Dr Dan Brown:

Well, not exactly. When, when when a condition was first discovered by john flavelle. In 1976. At Stanford University, he called it thinking about thinking, and that's not what it is, it's actually the right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is not the thought centre of the brain, it's has to do with pure awareness. So what we do is we confuse thought and awareness as if they're the same thing. When a person is metacognitive. monitoring, they working with awareness at very high speeds, they're not necessarily thinking about what they're doing. In fact, thinking is too slow. For Olympic athletes to monitor their performance while they're doing high speeds figure skating doesn't require thinking about what they're doing. It requires pure awareness of what they're doing. That's a huge difference.

Mitch Wallis:

So how do you cultivate that awareness? So if we're cultivating high attention, which I think everyone would be fairly able to grasp by now? How do you cultivate high awareness.

Dr Dan Brown:

It's not just a high awareness, it's awareness about what your state of mind is. And it's some we know that it has to do with attachment behaviour in childhood. kids whose parents are constantly curious about and wondering out loud about their child's state of mind, the child will internalise that awareness and activate and right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex will mature and grow better. So some people come into the world with a greater capacity for metacognition than others. Because their parents were the kind of parents who constantly were curious about their child's state of mind. If you if you don't learn it, there's ways that you can develop metacognitive ability there's out of Tavistock in the UK and out of the Sweden and out of the Netherlands, there are three research projects now and developing metacognition metacognitive skills in children, because it's a necessary part of problem solving and high performance in daily life. So we're just beginning to see trading courses developed for this,

Mitch Wallis:

okay, so for all the entrepreneurs out there, or even applying to our own mental health, when we want to improve at something when we want to push out performance on anything, we should be trying to find our edge and so I talk a lot about getting comfortable in the discomfort. And I think this point kind of proves that is how do we be okay with finding that point before injury but after ease, and consistently challenging ourselves to be passionately focused on building particular skills and having faith in the process that if you're Getting up to meditative and morning. Because you want that to help your anxiety that, that you even though it's challenging that challenge is part of the growth.

Dr Dan Brown:

Exactly. And that applies to peak performance. It also applies to concentrated meditation. There's a Sufi tale that says, a log sits very quietly on a woodpile for years, but logs never realised God. So don't sit like a log sit medic with metacognitive intelligence. So many meditators will just sit there and meditate and never reflect on the quality of their meditation. I did outcome studies as a psychologist on mindfulness meditators for 10 years, and we found that a lot of them were developed a lot of bad habits, and no one was ever correcting the habits and the meditation was getting very sloppy. And most of the teachers weren't training them the students to metacognitively reflect on the quality of the meditation and constantly improve it. There was a study done on concentration meditation, and both beginning and advanced concentrators. And the study found in both the beginning and advanced concentrators activated the ACC, the concentration centre of the brain, but only the advanced concentrate is not the beginning concentrators activated the right dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, the metacognitive part of the brain, and advanced concentration had nothing to do with years of practice, it had to do with whether the person was monitoring metacognitively, monitoring the quality of the meditation and constantly correcting it and improving it rather than to get complacent and develop a lot of bad habits.

Mitch Wallis:

And this is what I really struggled with, with meditation. And when I first started to get my head round it, it really improved my ability to to flourish, which was, I needed to be present enough to be concentrated on whatever I was thinking about, like the breath or a mantra or whatever, trying to zone out all the other noise and to become focused so that I could find some peace in space, but not so much so that I then became that thought and had no reflective capacity as to Oh, my mind's drifted off. Or, hey, that might not be a helpful way to approach that thought, or I'm attaching to that to that feeling. And so it's this really delicate balance, kind of like the accelerator and brake system that no one way, if you focus too much on one side of the equation, you're over indexing. And so for things like meditation, and I also think life, a healthy balance between focus and reflection is is the kind of ideal state, as well said, Thank you. So picking up on a point that you had before, you mentioned attachment, and I guess, this is my most passionate area, I've got my master's in psychology at Columbia. And we focused a lot on kind of the mind body aspect of it, but particularly the aspect of relationships. Whenever I kind of stand up and this community is so sick of me hearing me say that good mental health is more about changing our relationship to our experience, so that we respond better, rather than trying to take the problem away or fix it. And so I want to pause and just hear your centre, your reflection on that.

Dr Dan Brown:

Well, good mental health is related to attachment in a fundamental way. There are a number of studies that were done on a Tavistock with the adult attachment inventory, which is a structured interview that measures attachment status in adults. And those studies found that, particularly those who have what we call disorganised attachment, is adults it it predicts lots of mental health problems and more than then a good part of the variance, mental health problems are predicted by disorganised attachment.

Mitch Wallis:

This is very, very important. And we're about to open the door to the attachment psychology. And I'm going to play a bit of a translator to make sure that this role to this the science kind of comes across to our listeners in in a digestible fashion. So what we're saying is that relationships with others, ie connection, is the number one protective factor in cultivating good mental health. Would you agree with that statement?

Dr Dan Brown:

And also the reason that people come into therapy in the first place, right beautylish, the editor of the Journal of consulting and clinical psychology for several decades did a study in the 90s. And he found that 51% of people who come to therapy don't come in for DSM or ICD diagnosable psychiatric conditions, they come in for dissatisfaction with relationships or dissatisfaction with their self development,

Mitch Wallis:

or both being BINGO, BINGO. So what we're seeing here, and I want to I want to make sure we get very emphasis like I went through a lot of emphasis on it that relationships are The more of a predictive than anything else, the quality of the relationship on your mental health and that can when done will be a number one protective factor or when not done will be the number one determinant of suffering. Would you agree with that?

Dr Dan Brown:

I would agree with that. Yes.

Mitch Wallis:

And so to to kind of back back into the your research around what you're doing in attachment project. And with the most recent book that you wrote, which I want to get into, what we're kind of finding here is that trauma, I not necessarily incredibly acute things like seeing bombs explode, it could be more subtle forms of trauma, I anything that causes the individual to suffer distress that is an external event in the form of something material or a relationship. Trauma happens. And it is less about the impact of that trauma. And in terms of whether it's going to affect us, and more about whether we have a secure attachment style,

Dr Dan Brown:

I would say that there are three trauma maps or three, sorry, three relational maps. The first relational map is develops around 10 to 24 months and peaking in 18 months. And that's attachment maps. That's there are four types of attachment. And four types of attachment in the names for them and adults are secure attachment, dismissing attachment, anxious, preoccupied attachment, and disorganised attachment. That map is developed around 18 months konkan with the development of representational thinking. And it was studied, originally, with a standard laboratory paradigm called the strange situation paradigm by Mary Ainsworth and her associates. Know mother is brought into the playlab with her son between the ages of 10 and 20 months. And there are toys on the floor and there's a couple chairs around the floor. And there you observe them mother and child and interaction for three minutes without any clearer instructions. And then a stranger who's a confederate to the research comes in and you see the child's response to the stranger and how that affects the play behaviour for the next three minutes. Then the mother is asked to leave and you see what the child's reaction to the mother leaving is and how that affects the play behaviour in the presence of the stranger for three minutes. Then the mother comes back at the same time to strange leaves and you see the reunion behaviour between mother and child and how that affects the play behaviour for three minutes. Then the mother is asked to leave in Charlie's left alone for three minutes and you see what the play behaviours like when the child is alone for three minutes. And the mother comes back there's a second reunion so you get all the possibilities in there. And what Bowlby discovered way back when in the 1940s and Mary Ainsworth had a paradigm to test it in the laboratory with direct observation was that the paradox of human development is that the more secure the child is, the more the child sees himself or herself as a safe the parent as a safe haven. The more independent they get, the more complex the exploratory behaviour is securely attached child and child socially references the mother looks at the mother and then turns away in barstock six playing with the toys and play behaviour gets more and more complex, securely attached child has a clear preference for the mother over the stranger or being alone but it doesn't being alone with the stranger doesn't necessarily interfere too much with play behaviour. And they clearly protest when the mother leaves and they get reconstitute themselves and go back to the play behaviour. So healthy attachment is an interplay between healthy attachment behaviour on the one hand and a healthy exploratory behaviour and independence. On the other hand, kids who grow up to have what we call dismissing attachment. They don't they deactivate the attachment system, they show no clear preference for the mother over the stranger or being alone. They just do the toys but they get easily frustrated. They just disconnect from the relationships. There's almost no reunion behaviour it's quite dramatic. And kids who have what we call anxious preoccupation do the opposite. They have inhibited exploratory behaviour and kind of clinging attachment behaviour so that in the unfamiliar play environment they need a lot of coaxing to play with the toys at all and to show any curiosity and once the mother leaves they get pretty disorganised. Kids who have disorganised attachment deactivate both the attachment system and the exploratory system and They show a lot of disorganisation, a lot of dissociative behaviours. So those are the four prototypes, those prototypes are locked in 18 months and over 40 year, longitudinal studies 75% of those kids will not change that map and have the same map so that kids who are dismissing or disconnected they feel distance in relationships growing up in adolescence and adulthood into a secure graph, having intimate close intimate relationships and be secure. People who are anxious preoccupied will grow up with anxiety about keeping relationships, and they get really clingy in relationships and kids who grew up are disorganised, those are the ones that are going to have the most mental health. So those maps are well set in by 18 months. In, there's a second map that develops in the third and fourth year, we call it the ccrt. map the core conflict relational themes. In the third or fourth year, there are complex beliefs that are developed in children, as mediated by a family and by the cultural environment, about what's possible to the self in relationships. And those are more complex maps, and determines how people select relationships. And so the way that we determine those maps is we take a history of intimate relationships. And step back and look at the patterns. And you'll see that is like a complex piece of music. There's an underlying theme or several themes and infinite variations on the same few themes. But people's relational behaviour is purposeful, and they select the same old same old conflicts over and over again, in relationships. Those maps are developed in the third and fourth year, they're interpretable, they're at a time that the child has memories so that in short term therapy, you can identify the core conflict relational themes and say what to keep looking for a relationship is this, this and this. And what you expect to find instead is this, this and this, and that doesn't work. And if you keep the person on the theme of identifying that dysfunction on core conflict relational map, and we map it, then the person will select healthy, secure intimate relationships after that. There's a third relational map. And that's a trauma bonding pack for people who are in severe traumatic situations like a hostage taking situations like the Stockholm Syndrome, or in bettering relationships, or an incestuous relationships. And those maps have to do with the clear imprint of traumatic experiences that they have had. So these are the three relational maps, there's the attachment map, and the CCR t map and the trauma bonding map. And we could simply say that the difference is that whether you have trouble with relationships, which is an attachment problem, or whether you have trouble within relationships, which is a ccrt problem, not all relational disturbance is the same. And we try and determine for each individual, which relational map they have the most problem with, and then treat accordingly and change the map.

Mitch Wallis:

Wow, amazing a lot there. I'm going to break this down a little bit. So the number one thing I'm going to pull out, is that relationships are very, very important. And we don't define relationship in this context by a spouse, we're not necessarily talking about romantic we're talking, we're actually more at the moment about parent to child. But relationships and attachment in general refers to your relationship with your coworker, your siblings, your children, your friends, your family, spouse, etc. So first of all, really important that relationship means connection to other. And that's the part that we're trying to cultivate. And avoid the bad the bad aspects of it. So the second thing I want to say is that for those interested now thinking, Oh, shit, I wonder what attachment style I have, you can go and do an attachment survey, on your website, attachment project.com, I think it is. And there are a bunch of ways to to determine that through online surveys. And if you're seeing a psychologist at the moment, your therapist can walk you through attachment, what attachment style you have through those surveys, and I would really encourage you to do attachment work with your therapist, not least of which, which Dan and I will explore in a second, why it's so important. And sometimes the primary thing that should be treated attachment issues moreso than trauma or situational issues. But I also wanted to call out that what we saw there through the four attachment models that you described, one is healthy, which is secure attachment, and three unhealthy. And I guess what we'll see is unhealthy means not too far on either end of the spectrum. So on one end of the spectrum, you're super clingy. You're completely dependent on someone, you have fear for your environment, you don't want to explore. And then on the other end, you're completely cold shut down. You don't want to feel soothed by the other. You don't want to engage in intimacy with the mother, etc. And you're fiercely independent, fiercely independent. But yes, so much so that it's almost detrimental. And so what we're looking at is the middle ground between those two things, which no coincidence, again, we're coming back to the middle ground, parallels to Buddhism and spirituality, which is where you have a lot of experience. But if you're not into that, it doesn't matter. Science has shown that the middle path between those two things, ie the ability to connect, and have form of relationship and feel safe, and go there for safety, but also, to leave that and to be independent. But then make sure those two things are then operating in a dynamic nature so that you're not like the meditation thoughts. You're not so far into your thoughts that you've become blocked off. But you have enough mindfulness and enough reflective capacity to stay open. So I think, I think we've broken that part down my mind.

Dr Dan Brown:

And one more thing to that, and that is those who are deactivate both the attachment system and the exploratory system, those who have disorganised attachment, those are the ones that are going to grow up to have the most mental health problems. BINGO,

Mitch Wallis:

BINGO and disorganised is something I'm super passionate about, because it's the one that is most closely related to trauma. And it causes a biological paradox where you want to go to something for safety, but the safety object is instilling fear. So it causes an unsolvable solution. But the the implications right now is someone listening to this is probably thinking one of a few things. The first thing is, holy shit, what is my attachment style? Second thing is, what happens if something that's supposed to be baked in? That's unfair, I want to change it if for whatever reason I'm insecure or unhealthy right now, which I want to ask you questions about in a second. The other thing they might be thinking is, holy shit, I'm a parent, I have so much responsibility to ensure that my child has gets a healthy attachment system. How do I do that? And so I'm going to break that down into two parts. The first is, how do we make sure that we are giving others safe havens to ensure that we are custodians of someone else receiving healthy attachment? Can you describe what those behaviours would look like?

Dr Dan Brown:

Parents we identified five functions of secure attachment. The first is the parent makes the child feel safe and protects them from harm. So protection of the species is the fundamental evolutionary quality of long term attachment. The second is that parents who supply their child with security are carefully attuned to them, they are interested in everything the child does not just are interested in the child's behaviour, they're interested in the child's state of mind and they're constantly curious about and wondering out loud about the child's state of mind. So the child feels seen and known in the deepest ways. The third function is soothing. When a child is emotionally upset, the parent provides physical contact and comfort and verbal reassurance. The fourth function of detachment is what we call Express delight that parents are openly effusive about the delight of everything the child does, and more importantly, they're delighted about the child's being. That's the source of self esteem. in Hampstead clinic in the UK, there's a Joe Santa developed a definition for self esteem, a developmental definition, he calls it the linking of positive emotions to the self representation. So you learn to associate positivity, emotional positivity, with your sense of self. So for an older child, or for an adult, if you conjure up your sense of self if I conjure up danis, for example, the sense of Dan does my continent up against the backdrop of good feeling, if I have healthy esteem, but if I have failed to develop that healthy esteem, chronically failed to develop that self esteem, when I conjure up my sense of self, I conjure up a sense of self, but there's no positive feeling associated with it. So I have this fundamental sense of there's something missing in my life, or I conjure up negative feelings, in which point I'm depression vulnerable. But what people who are what we call narcissistically vulnerable can't do is conjure up positive feelings associated directly with their sense of self and where that comes from and Human Development is parents who are openly abusive in about their positive loving ways about everything that a child does and who the child is. And the reason why narcissism is such an an epidemic in Western culture is because parents are too busy, they're involved in the job of parenting, but not the joy of parenting, they're too busy to really enjoy their children. And that's why this positivity is often absent in astronomical proportions in the West. And the fifth function of human attachment is that the best parents are the champions of the child's best and strongest and most independent self development. They bring out the best of the child's independence and strength, and they help the child develop their best and strongest sense of self. Those are the five main functions of attachment, no, buddy gets all of those fully. But if you get sufficient, as always, you'll end up with secure attachment. And if you are absent in most of those, you will end up with some version of insecure attachment.

Mitch Wallis:

So so to talk that back, the five things are a one, safety and refuge, ie the ability to supply us, sorry, safety and protection, safety and protection, the ability to supply someone a comfortable haven to retreat to knowing that they will feel protected. Second thing is interest and curiosity. So being openly present, asking more questions than you give answers, showing that you care through your attention. Third is soothing, and reassurance. So allowing someone to feel like, you're gonna say, you know, it's okay, we've got this, you know, we're gonna get through this together. Fourth is Express delight and affirmation. So actually, not just always being in a place of reactive survival, but proactively being like, Hey, this is what I really like, you know, I would like to recognise how well you're doing, or blah, blah, blah. And the fifth is self development champions. So ensuring that you're playing a guiding role into helping that person become the best version of themselves possible. Did I get all that good? That's a good, so cool. So So then, by the way, love the parenting is should be a joy, not a job. And I particularly loved the be seen and known because I, I honestly believe that our number one human need is to feel understood, ie to feel seen and known. And it's through that if we are getting that, then we will have good mental health, because we will have a very good ability to respond to things, which means, regardless of what happens, I am in good stead to respond to things effectively. Now, what I'm interested in before we move on to or how do I get that if I haven't got it already. So so we know as a person, how to give it to someone, it's those five things. And I think it's not misguided of me to say that it's not just a parent who can give that to others there probably five qualities that we could focus on in any relationship, is that correct?

Dr Dan Brown:

Well, in what we call secure intimacy, with adulthood that each of the members of the spousal relationship of giving that to each other, all five of those things.

Mitch Wallis:

Okay, cool. So, so before we move on to get I want to talk about discipline. So as a parent, how do we give those five things to our child, but also, you know, we have a job to do in terms of discipline to make sure that don't run away, we can't be angelic all the time. How do we strike that balance?

Dr Dan Brown:

Well, for one thing, it means that parents need to learn about the importance of human attachment. But unfortunately, most parents don't do that. At the National Institute of Mental Health in the 1980s, Stanley Greenspan did a lot of work on the development of emotions and children. And after 20 years of research on the development of emotions and children, he wrote a book called first feelings. It was a manual for parents. That was the best of everything we knew about emotional development and children. And the book went out of print in six months, because nobody bought it because parents had this attitude that they know how to raise kids. And it's a birthright to know how to do this. And they didn't need to learn anything. Unfortunately, that's an attitude that's very prevalent among parents in Western culture. And there's always room for improvement and parents need to be coached better in terms of how to raise their kids to be the best kids, but most don't want to learn. They think they know it already. That's a problem.

Mitch Wallis:

Agreed. Agreed. And so and so from a tactical setting, I think the discipline or borrowing from Dan Siegel's work, and I've already I've already got your side apparently but by saying that, but but, but Dan Siegel takes the view that we should invest in Healthy attachment through the ability to give safe caring energy and refuges to people. However, in points of discipline or in points of conflict, whether that be with the child or in adult relationships, it's more important to then invest heavily in the repair. And make sure that repair structure is done right, versus never disciplining a child at all. Let them get away with murder or let your spouse walk over you or whatever. So, so having healthy boundaries and investing in the repair process is a good balancing factor. Would you agree with that? Yeah.

Dr Dan Brown:

And there are different types of repair. If it's a child and the attachment is insecure, then there are two ways of repairing that. What is that? Now what's happening in some Labs is that people are taking videotapes of the mother and child and interaction and show the natures of the Miss attunement and then breaking down the tape in front of the parents like in breakdowns, tapes in sports performances, and giving the parents feedback about how to better tune in. It's a live coaching by using videotapes. The second way that we work with young children who have insecure attachment is to provide the family with attachment coaches, Carlin, Lyons rose at Harvard Medical School, and has done that for 50 years she densified parents at risk parents who had major depressive disorder, or parents who had borderline personality disorder, or parents who had significant trauma or intense backgrounds or parents who were psychotic. And then she would bring in attachment coaches, into the home to do home visits. And then they were didactic classes to teach the parents how to be better raise the children so they could very secure children and 50 years of data suggests that attachment coaches to high risk populations works that you can take kids who would otherwise grow up to have some version of insecure and mostly disorganised attachment and give attachment coaches to the parents in a way that you can correct for that. Now with adults and disorders, we've we've evolved what's called the three pillars treatment. And in year, two or three years, you can develop a new positive map for relationships and secure intimacy and in adulthood in corrects the problems of attachment. That's what our textbook on treatment of attachment and adults is about.

Mitch Wallis:

perfect segue. So so so we know how to give it how do we get it. So let's say we're someone who, who didn't have a good upbringing, and that is largely out of our control. And we're sitting here being like, that sucks, like, Hey, I didn't get a choice in this. And it's supposed to be the most important thing as an adult, then how do we go in and secure attachment?

Dr Dan Brown:

Well, we developed a treatment that took us 20 years to develop the treatment. We have separate treatments for anxious preoccupied attachment, separate treatments for dismissing attachment and separate treatments for disorganised attachment. The each of those treatments has three components to it, or what we call the three pillars of treatment. The first are ideal parent figures, we say to the person who has adult who has insecure attachment, we say, I imagine you grew up with a family different from your family of origin, with a set of parents each ideally suited to you and your nature, and imagined to being with you in a way that is in the way that the being with you is gives you absolute security in the attachment relationship. Then we'll go through the five functions of attachment. And these ideal parent figures can provide safety and protection, they can be carefully attuned to you they can be expressive in their delight and positivity, about the being of the child, they can bring out the best of the child's self development. And then depending on what went wrong specifically in terms of the research that we know, will try and do attachment repair by developing ideal parent figures and we call it positive remapping that you can take what Bowlby called the internal working model for attachment which is negative or inconsistent or fragmented over time by having the patient visualise healthy attachment figures, ideal parent figures over and over again, they develop a stable positive internal working model for attachment and remap it and then the old dysfunctional models simply become irrelevant. They start operating under the new model, and they get better and they select for gold satisfying security and relationships. That's the first pillar of treatment. And we did that because attachment behaviour starts at the first days of life, but the attachment maps developed about 18 to 24 months. So it's not how you behave towards adult client. It's more about whether the adult client is going to develop the right positive internal working model or map for relationships. So a lot of the therapies are around attachment and based on the therapist trying to provide a become a good attachment figure for their patient and that's a trap. In my opinion, it's good therapist tries to act as a good attachment figure and they can't always do that. So there are lots of therapeutic ruptures. But if you do structured visualisations, using imagination, imagination creates new possibilities. So you can constantly shape and reshape the map over and over again until it feels just right in all these different ways. And you're developing a new positive internal map. So it's not on the therapist axis, whether you get the patient to develop the positive internal working map for the healthy, secure attachment. That's the first pillar the second pillar is that we found that that there's a number of metacognitive skills that need to develop in people who have attachment disturbances. It's the Tavistock clinic in the UK, they develop a thing called a reflective function scale, which is the capacity to reflect on your state of mind and most people in the general population score about 4.5 out of one to nine scale and reflective capacity. That is it most of us are moderately psychologically minded. People who have been in years of psychotherapy and particularly analysis trained themselves to look at their own states of mind, so they'll score eight or nine on the reflective function capacity. But Howard Steele told me from Tavistock that we've done some collaborative research together, he said that they never found a patient at Tavistock. And the psychiatric unit who had a borderline or mixed personality disorder diagnosis or a dissociative disorder patient who ever scored above three, than patients with personality and dissociative disorder diagnosis was so poor and metacognitive reflection never fully reflected the capacity that they developed an entire treatment around developing metacognitive capacity called MBT or mentalization. Based treatment and the outcome studies are enormously successful using those ways of training metacognition metacognitive skills in patients who lack them. The difference that I have with the Tavistock group is that most of their metacognitive skills are pre formed. And there's a whole research area on postformal meta cognitive development. Piaget developed a nice theory for intelligence goes up as far as formal operational things in adolescence. And if we think that human intellectual development stops in adolescence, we're in trouble as a species. There are seven stages of adult postformal cognitive development and metacognitive development and most of those adult forms of metacognitive element has to do with one form or another perspective taking. And then we try and introduce these postformal, adult metacognitive skills into our patients who completely lack them. And by taking perspective, in one way or another, they get better much quicker, it has an organising effect on the mind, we look at what's called coherence of mind. And so for example, if I take a patient with a borderline personality disorder, diagnosis or dissociative disorder diagnosis like this disorder, and I say to that patient, on a one to 10 scale, give me a sense of how organised or disorganised Your mind is, at this time, one being completely disorganised and being completely organised and the other numbers and level in between. and I get them to reflect metacognitively on the organisation or lack thereof of an organisation in a given state of mind. And I asked that scale six times an hour, every hour that I work with the patient six months later, they have a much more significant organisation of mind because the metacognitive capacity to observe that starts to shape in the direction of further organisation of mind. So you can actually develop it and create organisational coherence of mine by using these metacognitive skills. That's the second pillar of treatment. And the third pillar are treatment. I learned from Giovanni Eliade died earlier this year, unfortunately, he was in Rome Institute of cognitive therapy and I went over to study with him and I invited him to talk at Harvard several times. And he said that the collaborative system is different from the attachment system, and he introduced me to Michael Tomasello. His work, the social anthropologist who spent 10 years working with primates, chimpanzees and silverback gorillas will collaborate together to get food but they won't collaborate around sharing the food very much but what's unique about human evolution is that we can develop work teams and work on abstract projects together. So the huge leap in evolution from primates to humans was the capacity for collaborative behaviour. And Tomasello didn't work on young children and found it secure children are naturally collaborative they are the ones that share their toys in the preschool, are more empathic to when one or the other children is upset in the preschool. But kids who are insecure take their normal collaborative behaviour offline. So they, they can't share. And they they're not empathic. So collaborative behaviour isn't necessarily part of the human species. But if it really attachment is disrupted, our collaborative behaviour goes offline. So you see that in patients with personality and dissociative disorders, and who have attachment disturbances, so for example, somebody who has anxious preoccupation, they don't know how to take turns, they're constantly interrupting the other person and butting in and they can't, they can't do basic turn taking behaviour and basic discourse. And people who are dismissive, never talk about real things or talk about feelings. So we found that we weren't doing any favours to our patients by observing these things and not giving patients feedback. So in a non judgmental way, we'll teach our anxious preoccupied patients how to take turns and disk, verbal discourse and, and for dismissing patients to make eye contact and showing their nonverbal behaviour that they're actually attuned to the other person and are interested in what the person is saying. And by doing these three things, and remapping the attachment when positive ways develop a new internal working model for attachment, developing a series of metacognitive skills and teaching collaborative behaviour, then these patients over time have secure attachment in the organises state of mind at a high level, and they have good metacognitive capacity, the three things that we look for our outcome research is that the person is seeking secure attachment, that's the main criteria that they have a relatively good organisation of mind or coherence of mind. And they have a range of mature adult form postformal called cognitive and metacognitive operations in the collaborative, both verbally and non verbally. And if we meet those criteria, then we say the treatment is successful. And that means that the person should have a good capacity for intimate, secure adult relationships at that point.

Mitch Wallis:

Wow, that is amazing. First of all, so much gratitude, and thank thanks for your work, helping these people and then also building frameworks that we can go and scale and, and implement in different ways. I'm going to I'm going to bring this home by summarising and then expanding, if I may, please, thank you. Yeah, the biggest point I want to I want to drive home here is that, although attachment is, is, in its most sensitive period, in the first kind of little bit of life, as you're a baby, it is dynamic in that it can be changed, and, or, and so so we can be we can form secure attachment. And also on the other side of that, it's dynamic, so it's susceptible to change as well. So So practising healthy attachment your whole life to others and, and, and from others, is important to maintain the secure attachment. And so so I want to make that clear, it can be changed, which is a really good thing. But it also means we need to invest in high quality relationships our whole life, because it's our biggest protective factor and risk factor in terms of good mental health. Now, reflecting on the three ways that we go and get that if we haven't got that, and I'm going to, I shouldn't be casual with the way that I say this, but I'm going to try and translate it and I'm going to traverse and if my traversing is incorrect, you can you can correct me particularly because as as a scientist, you're going to want to say well, actually, we haven't proven that through data, but I'm going to I'm going to go a bit broad here. The thing that I took from point one, with the imaginative parents exercise is that you need to be able to feel what it's like to be loved. And imagining parents is a good way to get there but but we need to be able to in our bodies and in our and in our minds know that we are worthy and that we are enough. And so the capacity to to know that and feel that is super important for us to be securely attached and function as a healthy adult. How we get there is is our job to figure out as professionals. The second thing that I took away from what you said is having a reflective capacity I, we are willing to observe and sit with our pain, you know, things that we don't like about ourselves about other people, our life, the ability to actually reflect on that. And be willing to connect a thought with an emotion. So that we are coherent and coherent doesn't necessarily mean pain, free coherence can bring pain because when you organise the mind, you start to make sense of it and actually start to feel and process. But it means there is a sense of, I understand who I am, how my past is affecting my future, where there's unhelpful behaviours, feelings, emotions, coming out things that I need things that I don't need in the context of relationships or life, but you have a sense of what's going on and what makes you up as a person. And the third thing is collaboration, which is, am I going out and interacting with my species? Am I am I getting connection? am I walking down to the corner store? And instead of just buying my packet of gum, am I seeing that person as a human saying, Hi, thank you. The ability also to not just connect but being service to others. So collaboration in its true sense, isn't just connection, its connection with action? So are those actions actually being directed to or how do I help this person from the smallest to the biggest task? But is my intention to make this person's life better? And those are the three, three broader themes that I see from from your more scientific and tactical themes? What's your reflection on on that?

Dr Dan Brown:

The only thing I would add to that is around metacognition, there are two schools of thought is the Tavistock School, which looks at a general reflective capacity. And you mentioned the example of sitting with feelings. But then there's the Rome school and Rome school looks at specific metacognitive abilities. For example. metacognitive awareness is the ability to sit with feelings as you use in your example. But a very different skill would be metacognitive regulation, that is the ability to sit with feelings in a way that has an dampening regulatory effect on those feelings are metacognitive skill is the metacognitive ability to reflect on how organised or disorganised your state of mind is, at any given time. And these are specific skills that in certain patients are absent in one of those skills versus another and you have to match the right skill to the right patient. Otherwise, it gets too general. For example, in DBT, dialectical behavioural therapy, this core mindfulness is said to be useful. But core mindfulness means being aware of feelings, that's taught to patients with borderline personality disorder diagnosis, but borderlines are quite aware of the feelings according to the research in Rome, they just can't be aware in a way that they can regulate their feelings. But people who are narcissistic are very good at regulating the feelings, but they're not very aware of their feelings, and certainly very, not very well revealed feelings and others. So you have to do a condition specific analysis and say that for this given patient, there are certain metacognitive skills that are missing that we need to develop in another patient, there'll be very different. So it's not just a general reflective, metacognitive capacity, it's much more precise than that.

Mitch Wallis:

Got it. So it's also the ability to then go and do something as a result of that and regulate.

Dr Dan Brown:

Right. So regulation would be a big one and organisation of mine would be a big one.

Mitch Wallis:

Right? And and just quickly, I don't want to divulge too much, but what would you say is like something that would fit into that category of regulation? What skills could we do to cultivate that,

Dr Dan Brown:

that when you reflect on your feelings today, they actually have a dampening effect on the feeling so that you get into the mid range of the middle path range, as you call it earlier of not feeling either too much or too little.

Mitch Wallis:

Right. Okay. And so, so yeah, I think that that all makes sense. And as an Uber theme, we're trying to stay in the middle here with all all relationships, all emotions, all mental health, which is not being in at least in relationships, not being dismissing and cold and not talking about feelings and shut off, but also not being I need you to survive, save me. You know, I blend myself into you. So somewhere in the middle of those two things, the ability to feel loved, but also to be independent and be a healthy, functioning adult is super important in every domain, and I can't even articulate how much I enjoyed that discussion with you, Dan, about that, that just has made my week if not my year. So the I think we've covered everything that I wanted to so far, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask such an expert and wise brain. In all your years of being in this field, you've seen a lot of patients do a lot of things and you've proven that we can help What do you think is the biggest problem facing our world today? First of all, so why is mental health so bad and why we're seeing suicide rates at the biggest rates ever? And then second of all, what is the most helpful thing we can do as people every day to assist with our mental health?

Dr Dan Brown:

Well, I think in terms of the themes of what we talked about, there are two things here. One is, if you look at base rates of attachment in modern Western culture, which means Europe and North America, the base rates of secure attachment are about 62% across studies, which means that one out of three people have dismissing anxious preoccupied or disorganised attachment that's pretty high and traditional child focused cultures, the base rates of secure attachment were about 8075, or 80% 85%. So over the years, we're not doing something right. We're just too busy and not really attending to our kids enough. And so the base rates of secure attachment are going down. And that leads to lots of mental health problems. That's the first thing that we have to correct. The second thing is that children aren't learning the basic skills of paying attention anymore. So they don't learn to concentrate and sustain concentration and resist distraction. And all the technology makes that worse, we have a book coming out on concentration training for children, we've reviewed all of the development of attention and kids and all the skills that go into various kinds of attentional training. We reviewed studies, dysfunctional attention in children and adults. And we reviewed all of the intervention studies and we offer concentration training and for Developmental ages for four to six year olds for six to eight year olds for eight to 12 year olds and for adolescence and trying to integrate into the school system or curriculum to teach people to basic attentional skills, because they're not learning them at home. And they're not learning them in the culture in general. And we figured the best way of doing that is to make it part of the school curriculum. So we'll have a book coming out on attention development and training and children this May.

Mitch Wallis:

Awesome. And what in all your years, what's the best thing we can do to support our mental health?

Dr Dan Brown:

People who grow up with disorganised attachment, that in early adulthood that translates into most mental health problems? So yeah, early detection and treatment of disorganised attachment and kids is important.

Mitch Wallis:

Awesome. And so I love the work you're doing with the attachment project, you're bringing all this stuff to life where consumers can come on and learn about their style and go through courses as well as clinicians as well. So I would encourage everyone to check out attachment project Comm. Also, you've got so many books out there, Dr. Dan Brown, and in to check you out. There

Dr Dan Brown:

is another site called the mind only. And they're all of the studies that we did in exercises on performance excellence, and is a full day training course and concentration trading that's on that side, trying to pass next generations.

Mitch Wallis:

Yes, well, I have a feeling well, I'll be training with you next week directly underneath you as a teacher. So I couldn't be more excited to continue this more formally and academically so that I can continue to translate these learnings through the work that we do at heart on my sleeve. And I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your time today and for starting this relationship with me.

Unknown:

And thank you for all your work and trying to make this available people so really good service. I appreciate what you're doing.